Infiltration: A problem Child.

I know a few testers have a big beef with infiltration and since it had lead to interesting discussions in chats I thought it would be fun to open it as a topic. Most complaints are that infiltration is not in anyway equal, meaning some armies are far better than others at infiltrating and scouting. This often determines games as massed heavy weapons pour fire on any advancing troops while not allowing them to return significant fire. Then again other armies don't really have scouts or even infiltrators (orks and neks respectively). There are also a unit or two that infiltrate in some way yet are not supposed too according to the codex (cough cough SWS Teams). If you have an infiltration beef air it out here, but try to add something constructive too!

Remember with the DoW engine a unit that is hidden is best thought of as being invulnerable to units that can not target it. Think of this example. A full Tactical Squad sits just past a little past the detection range to see a SWSS in FoK. In FoK, Tactical Squad will be killed without losses by the SWSS(especially if armed with sniper rifles) if the Marines are not moved. On the Table Top, the marines can stay at that distance and fire away and probably kill off most of the SWSS in a round. While FoK may not be the Table Top, a goal should be to get match ups and results similar to the Table Top.

This paragraph written by west in another thread pretty much sums up my criticisim of the current infiltration method.


Fortunately, I play guard most which have actual proper spoters. No annoyance or frustration to me there, so I dont put out such a big deal about infilitration.


I also play marines, whom have skull probes, so again, no big deal infiltration is easily handled.


Yet, I play orcs, and they fucking suck at spoting. -MUCH frustration to be had here if the enemy spams infiltated units.

I hate that infiltrated units can mow down enemyies without being returned fire at. The fact they give vision to big guns behind is one thing, but the fact that the infiltrators themselfs can be in the killing force just sends the gameplay into shityness.

Heck, the main benefit of artiarly with any race has become the soul purpose of attack ground to snipe infiltrators.. certainly not its intended purpose.

I think that dow original method of infiltration, the method dow-pro reverted too if I remember correctly, was far superior. It fits the tabletop method of infiltration and does not break gameplay drnamics between races when they have poor spotters.

Points to consider before going on further:

1. Do you mean infiltrated units being able to fire only when they are in cover suck or are you confused with units with Stealth/Shrouding rules?
   
2. You didn't utilize the specified races (orks and necrons) greatest strength to supplement your own playing style, did you?
   

Please provide an elaboration with supporting arguments if you answer or are going to answer "yes, I do/did" to the aforementioned questions.

With regard to #1

Any decent map has -tons- of cover, you simply look at the terrain, if there are trees that will be light cover, crators walls heavy cover.

Maps without cover are crap. Hence the universal criticism DC maps got since they removed all cover, just look at them, rivers not negative, crators not even light, simply empty and poo.

That taken into account, any decent map will not be lacking in places for rangers/scouts/karskin/sniperdrones/whatever to sit in.

From a gameplay perspective, makes little difference whether it is infiltration or stealth, both have drastic effects.


Concerning stealth, 40k rulebook says stealth just gives units +1 cover saves, doesnt mention lack of retaliation fire.. Infiltration doesnt even give that, hence is no reason why infiltrated units could fire in cover and be invisible. I would see in dow engine that would result in +1 blue shield cover, not being invisible-invunerable stoping fire altogther.


With regard to #2, yah. I know what the strengths are Orcs and necrons fit my imp guard style pretty well, hence good success rates with them. The games in question werent lost, orcs steam roll most races from sheer massive numbers and cheap unit costs. But the infiltration was never the less damned frustrating and felt like bad game design. Main reason I wasnt gubed in my eyes, was due to the opponent frankly not using their advantage well enough. If it was me playing the guy with invisible units, id of pwned my orcs with minimal losses.

But win or lose, that doesnt stop firing-while-invisible being a totally frustrating Shit aspect of the game from the perspective of the orc player. In a game with orcs against sm/tau where the marine had tons of sniper scouts, the tau had tons of sniper drones. On a decent map hence cover where needed. Total annoyance and frustration was the result.


If I was going to fight against orcs, id spam the hell out of invisible units available, add some long range at, maybe a piece of artialry. the orc player prolly end up quiting out of frustration and annoyance.

It turns into a cat-mouse attirition fight of the invisible units moving forwards, shooting stuff that cant see them.. long range guns behind that shoot.. the orc HAS to charge forward, running to see invisibile units. Invisible units in turn run back, all the while long range guns shooting, then when orc thinks "oh fuck now what, gona retreat back to my lp's for safety" as orcs retreat the invisible units fire, then advance again. Orc only option is to charge and attack, being forced into it and most likely not succeeding when the fight isnt on their terms.


I do the same thing with imp guard sws/karskin infront missle/autocannon hwt's behind, utterly PWNS tier 2 races that dont have good spotters, orcs/tau perhaps eldar come to mind.

The comment about return fire and constant invisibility is a good one, it should not be so according to TT play. VGF's comments about good spotting armies being able to post up non-spotters is obviously true. They inf. system, seen in these terms, is done in a relatively poor way. Now, VGF may have over stated the invisibly firing units, so far as I know there are only three. The first is Tau Stealth Suits and the second is Tau Sniper Drones and the third are BT Vets. Where the first two fits the rules to a degree the later is totally out of place and is something that needs to be fixed.

I think West's comments are a good summary of the inf. system's problems. Maybe if VGF would like to enlighten me as to what the inf. system of DC originally was (its been a long time since I played Vanilla or Pro) I would be able to add a further comment on that. So VGF explain please.

System used to be infiltrate, move to where you want to be, then uninfiltrate - shoot. No shooting when infiltrated. IT was used for advanced positioning / scouting/ ambushing. Not for pwning someone stupid enough not to have his spoters there.

Also, I dont feel I over stated anything, given that any good map has lots of cover, is never the case that infiltrated units cant be used to shoot.

Firstly, I'd like to amend my mistake. I was actually referring to Stealth team's stealth field generator which I explained in details in "Spotter Disparity" thread, my bad. Its implementation is perfect in FoK, given the restrictions.

Now I'm sure that we are looking forward for a response from the mod leaders. With already so many valid supporting facts and arguments from the testers about how wrong is an infiltrated unit being able to shoot in cover in FoK, I'm not going to further inspire them to post more. That's more than enough in my opinion. In fact, I'm further elaborating their points myself.

Infiltration in TT is meaningful only in the infiltration deployment before scout move and reinforcement during the battle. In any time other that these occasions, those infiltrated units are essentially treated like a normal unit on the board. If line of sight permits, you can shoot them, they can shoot you, regardless the use of cover. I strongly second that infiltrated units should not be allowed to shoot even while in cover, unless you have counter arguments other than "this is my mod and my preference/words are rules".

@ VGF: As for the Orks and Necrons, especially Necrons, you might want to try using Grots or the three-wound-per-base, fast-moving Scarab swarms to screen. They are the "imba" elements of the races, regardless whether the opponents has a infiltrated units shooting in covers.

Just out of curiosity, but um. Are you saying that grots are an "imba" aspect of the orc race, think I got confused

As a orc loving player, I dont think thats really feasible.. grots had their own infiltration removed and they die faster than conscripts They arnt free to reinforce either

If anything, the "imba" aspect of orcs is 3 full squads of looters, each 1 orc with an autocanon costing the same as a tactical marine with a bolt gun, surronded by tax free trucks to reinforce on the move, while having a big mek with force field attached and 3 squads of flashgits with maddocks healing in the same blob.. no need to return to an lp to get gun replacements, good heal aura, mobile cover and cheap mobile reinforcement/// been having more success with that than even mans spam

Orcs most certainly arnt weak, in fact orcs might very well be -far too strong- when using the above combination. Doesnt stop infilitration being an utterly annoying frustrating mess for them to deal with though

Well, you have just discovered a bug regarding Grots. I'll post that in the bug forum. After they are fixed, they should be able absorb heavy damage for your other mobs to get into melee or screen for your lootas if you like ranged combat.

*is watching this thread intently*

So the general consensus is that any units that infiltrate SHOULD NOT be able to fire when the infiltration ability is active - regardless of whether they're in cover or not?

I can live with that - consider it on the list of "things to do".

That being the case, what units does it leave as being able to shoot when infiltrated?

Stealth teams, tau leader with their uber stealth armours.


Any others that arnt just infiltrating via skill or buffed items?

I disagree with the most points in the last post. Points of note:

such a fix is short-sighted and renders all Infiltrators down to being over sized Skull Probes in the end.

Wrong.
Infiltrated combat units, when spoted will be able to fire back and defend themselfs.
Infiltrated units when un-infiltrated will be good combat units, in nearly all cases equally good -or better- than none infiltrated units available to the races in question.

An infiltrated scout unit, imo, acts properly as a scout to look ahead, give eyes to the army behind, give combat details. Perhaps engage, but then fall back or infiltrate again and resposition for another shot.
Infiltrated, firing while invisble huge scout squads/ranger squads is fubared in certain situations.

FoK is a RTS, so in that light Infiltrated units should have some ability to fire from hiding.

Why? Why should they be able to fire and remain invisble and be immune to retaliation?

The purpose of infilitration, by the word definition from the 40k manual actually suits gameplay in the real time enviroment at least as good if not -better- than tabletop. In tabletop it just gives you a "meh" ability on turn 1, in real time you can re-infiltrate as many times as you wish. It offers dynamic scouting into the fog of war, far superior. But in no way does that imply they aught do what was described in your own example that I quoted in the 2nd post in this thread.

while hidden should not fire on the move.

That will do utterly nothign to effect the current situation, the only notable units firing invisible-in-motion are stealth teams which will continue to do this. The problem is mainly sniper class weapons, mainly rangers/scouts/sws/plasma upgrades on various units/any heavy weapons if they still exist. Sniper drones a big thing too, but guess tau is going to always be a race where you need spam spoters against. Just so long as that is -one- race only where the annoying frustration exists, 1 out of 9 aint too bad

As I stated on another thread, my vote is to make Infiltrators able to fire while hidden but at reduced rate of fire.

Again this does little to remedy the current situation. The units that fire now already have low, high damage attacks. Yes, a reduced fire rate will give overall less damage in time, but it just prolongs the situation and doesnt have much effect. Sniper class weapons, Bang, all damage is done in an alpha strike then they can run away-reloading on the move then fire again (which good marine players will be skilled at from vanilla anyways, as with assassion for ig).

Yes they can if left untended, but one can set the problem to be on par with having a tank attacking when one has no anti-armor in their army

Terroble example.
You can compare it more to fighting as orcs against old arco, when you didnt have looters. And thus, you dont have the at options available even if you wanted them and planned to get them. Good luck. Made me quit out of frustrtation in such matchups. Thats not good game play


Not all races have sws / skull probe quality detection. IF they did, then infiltrated units firing from cover wouldnt be an issue. Since they dont, infiltrated units need fixed.
Not all races had good AT, that was fixed now orcs do. Spoting options relative to invisible units still arnt on par.

Also the snipers I know would probably have trouble with the idea that their digital counterparts could not fire when hidden.

Taking real life examples of a game dealing with inches is rediculous. To say the least the snipers in real life would be firing from 17 boards distance away where they couldnt even see the enemy without scopes. OR, if in close range think of the various pwned snipers in saving private ryan -,-


Sorry, just feels to me like someone who loves using marine scouts and not liking them being nerfed

A clarification, the only Tau unit that "infiltrates" is the Kroot warrior squad, all the others (Stealth suits teams, sniper drones and XV22 commander) have Stealth Generators witch makes them all the time invisible.

I think Skull probes must removed and leave only Scouts and Devastators sarges equipped with auspex, skull probes as spotters are a left over from relic's DoW.

on the SWS matter, when the current infiltration/stealth system came up they where only able to Cloak on covers but then some people started complaining (among them MK and medes) that they where almost useless and thus where made permanently cloaked again.

Sorry, just feels to me like someone who loves using marine scouts and not liking them being nerfed

perhaps im one of those

At first the idea was to make that when infiltrated units fired they revealed their position, but apparently the combat_ext modifiers arent working well, so we couldnt achieve that, then decided that they could fire from hidden positions while staying invisible.

I think making them only fire from heavy covers only could be a middle option. also by using the min range modifier we could simulate that they only target enemies far enough to not be heard/seen

such a fix is short-sighted and renders all Infiltrators down to being over sized Skull Probes in the end.
--------
Wrong.
Infiltrated combat units, when spotted will be able to fire back and defend themselves.
Infiltrated units when un-infiltrated will be good combat units, in nearly all cases equally good -or better- than none infiltrated units available to the races in question.

Well, one thing that needs to be fixed if Infiltrated units don't shoot while hidden is that they do fire when detected. Right now if an enemy pulls an Infiltrated unit out of hiding the formerly hidden units do not fire until the Infiltration button is set to off. The end result is Infiltrated units getting spotted and unless constantly monitored by their human player to toggle the on/off button, they die without a shot fired.

variou wrote:An infiltrated scout unit, imo, acts properly as a scout to look ahead, give eyes to the army behind, give combat details. Perhaps engage, but then fall back or infiltrate again and resposition for another shot.
Infiltrated, firing while invisble[sic] huge scout squads/ranger squads is fubared in certain situations.

It would work best if one not consider all Infiltrators as Scouts first, when instead the situation is the units fill out other roles by use of Infiltration. The Ork Kommandos might be an Infiltrating unit, but they are not primarily Scouts. Kommandos are squad that sneaks up and then jumps into hand to hand with no warning. Stealthsuits are armed for anti-armor and disable hardened targets while hidden. Eldar Pathfinder Rangers are great at taking down enemy characters. On the Table Top scouting with units is not really done, since the whole battlefield is seen. In FoK units that can stay hidden and push back the Fog of War get recruited for scouting jobs. On the Table Top there is a specific special rules for Scouts(p76), that is very much the same as Infiltration(p75), but they are different. Scouts get a Movement from within the deployment zone. Infiltrators get to chose a place outside of the deployment zone based in part on Line of Sight. This difference is the key which leads to:

Why? Why should they be able to fire and remain invisble and be immune to retaliation?

The purpose of infilitration, by the word definition from the 40k manual actually suits gameplay in the real time enviroment at least as good if not -better- than tabletop. In tabletop it just gives you a "meh" ability on turn 1, in real time you can re-infiltrate as many times as you wish. It offers dynamic scouting into the fog of war, far superior. But in no way does that imply they aught do what was described in your own example that I quoted in the 2nd post in this thread.

The simplest reason to give for why an Infiltrated unit should be able to fire hidden and not take return fire is there an instance of Spontaneous Symmetry Breaking in the LOS. When an Infiltrated unit has LOS to their target, the targeted unit does not necessarily have LOS back at the Infiltrated unit. This may come off as a position the opposite of what I talked in the other thread, but there my illustration and example was more based on what giving a unit a special rule it should not have would result in. What I am discussing in this thread is the effects of a skill a unit does have. A squad with Infiltration being deployed on the Table Top has the possibility of being deployed and their target never getting shot at them before being lost to the Infiltrators. The reason for that outcome being because the Infiltrated unit never came into their attacker's LOS at the proper time.

You seem dismissive of what Infiltration could do for a player on the Table Top, but a unit with Infiltration can be deployed in a manner that will allow the Infiltrated squad to kill a nearby squad or vehicle without ever getting a shot fired in return. There are a couple of ways to achieve this: An Infiltrated unit sets up at the start in spot that denies a LOS to the enemy, yet close enough that on the Infiltrated unit's first move and/or attack, taken from their LOS perspective, allows them to make their kill. Another option is to wait until a later round and use the Infiltrated unit to Outflank and come in and hit an enemy in their LOS and range as the Infiltrators come on the board. The end ruslt being them making a kill without being attacked in return due to using Infiltration. As such in FoK a squad with Infiltration should be able to fire while hidden. When treated that way the result that is represented agrees with the Table Top and allows a squad with Infiltration to make kills without taking return fire.

That is part of the reason for pointing out a unit while moving should be able to hide, but not fire. This would be representative of the pre-battle movement of Infiltrated troops on the Table Top who take up position, but since it is pre-battle they never fire on or otherwise attack their enemy. This also works if one were to think of the Outflank option, since the time hiding and moving without shooting would be a parallel to the rounds a commander does not have the Infiltrated unit on the board to make attacks or be attacked.

while hidden should not fire on the move.

That will do utterly nothing to effect the current situation, the only notable units firing invisible-in-motion are stealth teams which will continue to do this. The problem is mainly sniper class weapons, mainly rangers/scouts/sws/plasma upgrades on various units/any heavy weapons if they still exist. Sniper drones a big thing too, but guess tau is going to always be a race where you need spam spoters against. Just so long as that is -one- race only where the annoying frustration exists, 1 out of 9 aint too bad

See above. Also, 40K has all sorts of move and fire rules for certain weapons and I thought my statement would be viewed in that context.

As I stated on another thread, my vote is to make Infiltrators able to fire while hidden but at reduced rate of fire.

Again this does little to remedy the current situation. The units that fire now already have low, high damage attacks. Yes, a reduced fire rate will give overall less damage in time, but it just prolongs the situation and doesnt have much effect. Sniper class weapons, Bang, all damage is done in an alpha strike then they can run away-reloading on the move then fire again (which good marine players will be skilled at from vanilla anyways, as with assassion for ig).

My proposal may not remedy the issues of Infiltration on its own, but it would move it to a place were things can be worked on and fine-tuned. Right now the discussion is to set the rate of fire=1 or 0. My suggestion is to look into varying the ROF between 1 and 0. Even with fully powered Infiltrator units and characters, they usually take more then one round of fire or volley to kill their target, be it a squad, character, or vehicle. Given that, if the time between shots is long enough Infiltrators can be chased off and maybe killed since with the above rule of no move&fire(and thus no reloading)while Infiltrated they will not shoot their way out as often or get away. If an Infiltrated unit(s) with 25% the ROF or less of another army can frustrate or kill a player then I think the player under attack is doing a poor job at handling their attacker.

Yes they can if left untended, but one can set the problem to be on par with having a tank attacking when one has no anti-armor in their army

Terrible example.
You can compare it more to fighting as orcs against old arco, when you didnt have looters. And thus, you dont have the at options available even if you wanted them and planned to get them. Good luck. Made me quit out of frustrtation in such matchups. Thats not good game play
Not all races have sws / skull probe quality detection. IF they did, then infiltrated units firing from cover wouldnt be an issue. Since they dont, infiltrated units need fixed.
Not all races had good AT, that was fixed now orcs do. Spoting options relative to invisible units still are not on par.

My example was more general in that when an enemy attacks with a certain methodology, then it behooves the defender to work to address it appropriately. That was why further in my post I laid a out a way to increase detection by all armies by giving units that are completely unable to detect now the ability to detect to some degree.

Also the snipers I know would probably have trouble with the idea that their digital counterparts could not fire when hidden.

Taking real life examples of a game dealing with inches is rediculous[sic]. To say the least the snipers in real life would be firing from 17 boards distance away where they couldn't even see the enemy without scopes. OR, if in close range think of the various pwned snipers in saving private ryan -,-

The last line was meant as a throw away line and joke. I forgot the emoticon/smiley to clearly telegraph such to make it obvious.

To address your comments, snipers would probably not be 17 boards away. Snipers would be far closer then a Basilisk or Russ given the main weapons on them have ranges of kilometers or 10's of kilometers. As for your close range example, of Saving Private Ryan; all snipers met an end, but before going down collectively they were pretty effective at firing and curtailing their enemy's movement until they were seen and targeted. If Tom Hanks did not have his own sniper, how long and how many beyond Vin Diesel would have been lost trying to get past the German in the tower that was using the French family as bait?

Sorry, just feels to me like someone who loves using marine scouts and not liking them being nerfed

My post took no sides or promulgated a position from the point of view of any army or race. That comment leaves me thinking you viewed my post as having a focus that was not there. I did my best to use generic terms and language that could be applied to an overall dynamic in FoK of Infiltrated units interacting with non-Infiltrated units. You may have seen me do a lot of marine play in multi-player, but that was not the perspective from which I wrote or intended to write.

I like the ability to see and react to an enemy attack before they get in position to attack. When I play the marines, yea I use a scouts often when there is cover to hide them and fire as they are not bad at trying to engage and discourage attackers ahead of my main group or base. When there is little or no useful cover, I stick more to Skull Probes observing and switch to mostly using scouts to try to grab untended resources unseen.

I think Skull probes must removed and leave only Scouts and Devastators sarges equipped with auspex, skull probes as spotters are a left over from relic's DoW.

Long have I been wanting to get rid of these excessive, role-overlapping-non-codex units, but was always held back by the concerned about the team's special reasons behind their implementation, like in the case of Scanners from Imperial Armour etc. You wouldn't know how pleased I was upon reading this decision. *making a happy dance*

I think making them only fire from heavy covers only could be a middle option. also by using the min range modifier we could simulate that they only target enemies far enough to not be heard/seen

Although its not supported by the codex, the idea is by far the best compromise and I think there won't be any better idea but you could try giving one. Nevertheless it should be fairly restricted as it is mostly for the sake of realism not TT. Non-sniper rifle weapons (bolter, shotgun etc) would not be able to fire at all. Should the minimum range be smaller or larger than the maximum sight range of the squad? Should the squad suffer additional setup-time penalty for mounting sound suppressor/silencer on their weapons? Added reload time like SCO suggested for taking careful aim/shot?


EDIT: Uh, consider this post comes before SCO's but after Melooo's one. It's late now and I haven't had the time to read SCO's long post that was posted while I was writing this (at least the forum told me so).

To be honest after much thinking i like very much Che's infiltration aproach, slow firing rate + no fire on move combo, look likes worth of giving a try.
Walkers do have detection range but its equal to Ix1.5 so a Dreadnought has a keen sight of 6 which aint much but enough to avoid a mine field, so yeah perhaps its worth to change the detection ranges for Ix2 or even further adding a base of 5 for all infantry, walkers and open topped vehicles where they add their I value.

Detection range:
-Infantry, walkers and open topped vehicles: 5+(Ix1.5)
-Night Vision/Acute senses special rule: 5+Ix3
-Auspex/Scanners wargear: 27
-Scouts special rule: 5+I3

Enclosed Vehicles gets passive special ability that disable enemy infiltration in a front arc of 90° and a range of 10 (if set to only affect squads then minefield are still immune to it)

IR-479 lists the new Infiltration rule. I am wondering about about why Infiltrators will be firing while hidden only from Hardened Cover instead of anywhere? Most maps do not have useful Hard Cover.

Of note, I do remember encountering Skull Probes somewhere in a text for an Imperial Army listing. I am not sure if it was the Space Marines, but I do know in the Space Marines army lists some characters can get Familiars. Familiars are not dissimilar to Skull Probes, if not actually be one of the forms a Familiar can take. Either way I think the presence of Skull Probes are closer to codex then they are not.

Also an Auspex is a wargear purchase that can only be taken if the character has Terminator armor. Until we get marine characters in terminator armor, the Auspex should not be showing up offering what it does on the Table Top. If the Auspex offers a range of 4d6" and Infiltrators must be at least 12" from an enemy unit; that leaves ~50% chance of having the detection range from the Auspex-equipped character to find units deployed via Infiltration.

In general to all that keep coming across my novellas, I am sorry if I have been loquacious in my posts and lead anybody to miss a meal, be late to a social event, forget to walk the dog, or any other inconvenience. I can get that way, and I will work to do some self-editing and paring down in future posts.

well sincerely i dont believe that they should be able to fire in the open while cloaked that contradicts the fact of being hidden, though we could put them back to be able to fire from Stealth and Light covers.

btw any ideas on how simulate the outflank on units with scouts rule?
currently scouts only have a speed movement boost and better sight/keensight ranges than normal units

the auspex can be taken by characters in termie armour as well as power armoured and scout armour. (that T on the wargear section means that only items marked with it can be taken by termie armoured characters)

the Auspex offers a range of 4d6" and Infiltrators must be at least 12" from an enemy unit; that leaves ~50% chance of having the detection range from the Auspex-equipped character to find units deployed via Infiltration.

regarding on that we could make the auspex a passive ability that increase the sight range and intermittently the keensight range to full 24" in 3 phases, 8" is default at 15sec +8" and at 30sec +8", with a refresh rate of 30 sec.

Skull probes might come back as Librarian familiars but not as a roaming auspex.

Must...obey...Hypnotoad...

It would work best if one not consider all Infiltrators as Scouts first

I'd rather that people stoped thinking of units with infiltrate as being squads of Predators pwning all with the inviso-fields first.



Once that is out of the way can consider more the individual case by case examples.


Best compromise ive seen so far is only being able to shoot when in heavy cover at a reduced fire rate (to suggest trying to avoid being seen), opens up more options to avoid it. Typically, light cover isnt sufficent to hide in anyways. (thinking back to hiding rules from older versions where you could spend a turn hiding, meaning you couldnt be shot at, nor shoot, behind heavy cover though immediately gave position away when you either moved or shot)

Subteniente Che Oeste wrote:Of note, I do remember encountering Skull Probes somewhere in a text for an Imperial Army listing. I am not sure if it was the Space Marines, but I do know in the Space Marines army lists some characters can get Familiars. Familiars are not dissimilar to Skull Probes, if not actually be one of the forms a Familiar can take. Either way I think the presence of Skull Probes are closer to codex then they are not.

*Homer imagines his army yelling "Abhor the witches! Purge the psykers!" then proceeds to toss his Black Templar Codex away and kicks his army case*

My toe hurts. Thanks for reminding me of a Librarian with Familiars.

Melooo wrote:regarding on that we could make the auspex a passive ability that increase the sight range and intermittently the keensight range to full 24" in 3 phases, 8" is default at 15sec +8" and at 30sec +8", with a refresh rate of 30 sec.

Motion sensors ftw! I think it should have a slightly smoother transition, like 4" for 7.5s, 8" for 15s, 12" for 22.5s etc.

variou wrote:Best compromise ive seen so far is only being able to shoot when in heavy cover at a reduced fire rate (to suggest trying to avoid being seen), opens up more options to avoid it.

No minimum range penalty? I fail to accept the fact that a scout firing his shot gun in heavy cover and can't be seen, unless it was a Predator who fires. : D

I forgot to add that one
Minimum range will be of 20 so most pistols and close ranged assault weapons wont be able to fire when concealed, though they can still cc, but as all units have a minimun keen sight that aint a problem

Auspex has been removed from the SM armoury in the 5th codex :\
vanguards vets apparently are fast attack choices hrmmm...

No auspex or skull probes makes it look like marines will feel orcs pain bring on the infil spam against marine players now, see the complaints you get from the fanboys