Spotter disparity

VGF and I were talking. We both agree that spotters should be equal in their spotting power. For some reason in the current build SS are poorer spotters than IG Special Weapons Teams. Is this intended?

Upon further reflection why should Tau who pay for larger detection radius only to be out done by IG who don't?

The detection range is dependent on the "Initiative" value of the detector.

What do you mean by SS? Could you give a specific case and elaboration regarding the detectors of Tau and of IG?

I guess he means with SS Stealth Suit teams
well IG Special weapon Teams are equipped with "scanners" so they get a massive Spotting range of 43, while SS only have "Acute Sense" rule witch makes their spotting range "Init x 3" being it a 6

Melooo wrote:I guess he means with SS Stealth Suit teams
well IG Special weapon Teams are equipped with "scanners" so they get a massive Spotting range of 43, while SS only have "Acute Sense" rule witch makes their spotting range "Init x 3" being it a 6

Yes SS are Stealth Suit sorry I did not elaborate. Pardon me if I am mistaken but don't the 'black sun filters' add to their spotting range? What is the purpose of buying it as an upgrade? Does it only add to their sight radius, its not clear at all.

Also, I don't have the IG codex but are these scanners in the codex? In FoK they are way too powerful. A good IG player can pick you apart with his fist fulls of heavy weapons while he spots out your front lines...you never quite see him but he sure sees you. When you attempt to spot his spotters you get nuked and simply take heavy looses. For example I was playing a game with VGF last night and he just kept seeing my SS and Sniper Drones way before they could even open fire on his lines or find his lines. In about 11-14 mins the new outfitted IG can get a bunch of auto-cannons and one or two missile teams that just shred troops and armor. If you can't spot them you are doomed, especially if you are a weaker armored army such as the Tau. My SS would try and open up targets for the Sniper Drones and just get shredded with the drones falling way before they ever got into range.

Spotters are a huge part of FoK and radical disparities between their abilities amounts to a huge (even insurmountable) advantage or disadvantage. In this particular IG vs. Tau match up it was decisive and insurmountable. I have put my brain to the problem but find it hard to see how Tau could have broken the IG advantage.

Scanners exist in the Imperial Armour 4 book as an 0-1 extra HQ unit, Cost 65pts, is immobile and can either work in two modes:
1) as a Detector disabling infiltration units in the game Table
2) giving rerolls to a single squad at 12" in the shooting phase, squad can be changed each turn

We were treating SWS as equipped with SM Auspex rules, and the cost was included to the squad

if we are gonna use the IA rules, then we'll gonna have to create a spawnable unit from SWS (maybe using the IG nuke model as placeholder), or something similar to the vanilla DC chaos tainted Auspex,
that has long detection and sight range, even more than the auspex something like 100 and 60 respectively, and can also boost close units ranged accuracy with a toggable ability that also reduce its detection range to 20, this piece of equipment should cost 325req, be always cloaked, 300HP and AV10.
It probably will have to be a Spawnable Squad to achieve the 0-1 limit, though im not sure if Direct Spawn ability uses the cost, it will have to be tested

And for not leaving SWS completely without a mobile detection function we could give them Acute Senses and thus grating them a detecting range of 9, in that way you can place the scanner in a choke point and then move one or the two SWS to another place for minor spotting.

BTW Chaos Lords have now a detection range of 15 as they have got Acute Senses Veteran Skill, Cost Added. (3er Ed codex rules)

That was a through explanation, thanks a bunch. Now, a larger question comes to mind. If IG SWS Teams have acute senses and are just as worthy as spotters as any other army's spotters why even add these suplimentary rules from Imperial Armor? Since the addition is really not so much codex as founded on suplimentary rules, then the addition of this massive spotting power is not necessary from a rules point of view. I think it should be gotten rid of all together. Considering the load out of heavy weapons that IG get with their new squad constructions, giving a larger detection sight range is making them way over powered. Give them an acute sense detection radius so the playing field is more balanced.

Case in point take my Tau example from my last post. The Tau are supposed to be excellent at long ranged fire, but compared to guard they cannot compete. IG can out spot them and out range them from T2 until the advent of Broad Sides and by then IG has hidden detector units everywhere to pin your forces down and shred you to bits. At that stage even BS are not enough to save you.

If IG are going to have such awesome long range fire power they have to lack in some department and right now, properly played, they don't really lack in any critical area. Sure they have no h2h but that is so ineffective that it does not matter. The fact of the matter is they can spot better than anyone and can have over 50 Heavy Weapons depending on the Doctrine chosen. Remove the detection and spotting radius and you will have a more balanced playing field.

Regarding your case, please try using a Pathfinder squad and a XV8 'Crisis' Battlesuit team together as your powerful spotter unit against IG because they compensate each other very well. Here is the details of their spotting capability compared to the SWS:

1. Sight Radius: Pathfinder's sight radius is 25.6% longer than that of SWS.
   
2. Detection Radius: XV8 with Black Sun Filter has better detection range than SWS by 14.8%. XV81 'Crisis' Battlesuit team leader with Black Sun Filter has an even larger detection range, about 25.9% better than SWS.
   

You should be able to see them and wipe them out before they could spot you.

Homer wrote:Regarding your case, please try using a Pathfinder squad and a XV8 'Crisis' Battlesuit team together as your powerful spotter unit against IG because they compensate each other very well. Here is the details of their spotting capability compared to the SWS:

1. Sight Radius: Pathfinder's sight radius is 25.6% longer than that of SWS.
   
2. Detection Radius: XV8 with Black Sun Filter has better detection range than SWS by 14.8%. XV81 'Crisis' Battlesuit team leader with Black Sun Filter has an even larger detection range, about 25.9% better than SWS.
   

You should be able to see them and wipe them out before they could spot you.

Thanks Homer is good to see some numbers on the issue. Shouldn't the black sun filters also effect SS teams? It is an equipment option for all suits Stealth or otherwise...that was why I was confused about how the things were supposed to work. SS teams should also be effected by black sun filters, are they or aren't they? If they aren't then this should be changed.

So that covers the game advice angle but the more pressing question is why implement suplimentary rules from imperial armor when IG already have spotter units? They Arco long range fire power and Infantry long range fire power is now beastly powerful. This is the main issue at hand. Even VFG has come out and said that IG firepower is (in his opinion) a bit too strong (he said OP'ed)...emphasizing this Op'edness by giving them insane FoW and detection will only make it worse.

Give them an acute sense detection radius so the playing field is more balanced.

I disagree with nerfing sws.

You are saying they are too good. Well buff the rest.

Most races utterly suck at spoting, imp guard without sws is UTTER WANK at spotting and would make stealth units utterly game breaking without. I've danced around others with impunity before using them on others, dont like the idea of that happening to me, knowing I cant do shit about it without 100 times more effort.


I truely dont want to see perma stealth shooting units dominate, I would rather they suck than ruin the rest of the game.

So wait a minute, we are pulling rules from supplementary materials while at the same time half-assing things from the rulebook and continuing to put out selected army lists for most races? Seriously the explanations and ideas so far leave a lot to be desired.

From the top, the Command Squad for the Guard is currently not an independent Squad as per codex; it is permanently attached to the Colonel/Commander/Dude in Charge. As far as the codex for the Guard seems to read, once you have a Command Squad in your army, then one can get Support Squads of which you can select 2 Special Weapons Support Squad(SWSS) if you so chose. So that needs some attention to get build orders correct.

The listing for Special Weapons Teams does not offer Infiltration as Special Rule, Option, or Ability in the unit listing. The only unit(s) in the Guard Army Lists that get Infiltration are Ratlings. One could pay for a Squads with Infiltration if they are Last Chancers, Storm Troops, or Hardened Veterans, or if they purchase certain Skills and Drills. In the just mentioned cases the standard is if they are not mounted in a vehicle, they get could use/buy Infiltration. Since nothing in FoK can be truly designated vehicle mounted, that rule if applied directly to FoK is useless and meaningless. The point of this paragraph is that SWSS's as they are in FoK now will get forward of the main army, Infiltrate, and use Acute Senses to spot enemy units trying to be sneaky without SWSS themselves being seen and under fire from enemy guns. The rules and codices do not support that scenario happening. What one should see more often is very much the opposite. SWSS teams are spotted and taken out from afar by enemy troops, especially if those attackers are Infiltrated.

What if we pull out Imperial Armor 4 and chose to implement a section that is half a page of rules in a book of about 165 pages of rules? Well things still poorly match what is currently in the game and the ideas offered thus far. A Scanner is an independent model/unit that seems to be something of an immobile fixture on the board. What is significant about that? Well if it is a model, then for the rules/effects to be in play there needs to be a model on the board that will cause the effects of the Scanner and the effects will be lost to the Guard if they are killed/destroyed. If a Scanner is offered to the guard, it a should be something that needs to be placed and built like a turret. I think such an implementation would offer some fun for a Guard commander, since they could increase the chances of nailing Stealthy units, but only if they place the Scanner well and protect it.

The Scanner itself has 2 settings. The Long Range Scan mode gives any Infiltrated units a 50/50 of being able to successfully Infiltrate anywhere on the board. I have to admit I like that it is a coin toss as to whether or not a Scanner will pick out that nearby Infiltrated unit with a Melta Bomb ready to toss. Something like that adds to the suspense in the game for both sides. The second Scan Mode offers a Short Range Lock to a unit 12"( or the distance bolt pistol can fire) from the Scanner or those with Vox's to get re-rolls on missed shooting rolls. In other words, on the second setting the Scanner offers an Imperial Guard version of Guide to one lucky unit.

I like the idea of the Guard having access to a Scanner. That would help add some depth to the Guard and make it more dependent on how the player uses the Guard's options to determine the army's success. A buildable structure that had one button to activate each of the two scans is what is needed. The first button offers the same scan the Damocles does. This means if you time it right, you can catch units sneaking around, but it is not a given. The second button offers a unit within range the same power/effect as if it had just been selected the beneficiary of a Farseer's Guide power. Doing a Scanner this way avoids giving powers and skills to units that should not have them and disturbing a precariously balanced game.

All battlesuits in the current built already come with Acute Senses rule and thus have better close-proximity stealth detection capability than most other units despite their low initiative value. It is also true that the black sun filter upgrade applies only to Crisis battlesuits in the current built. The price is too expensive considering only nine Crisis battlesuits benefit from the upgrade. Nevertheless, this upgrade is very powerful when combine together with battlesuits with Acute Senses rule and work very well with Pathfinders who have the Scouts special rule. The following shows the stealth detection capability in descending order:

1. Acute Senses rule (directly proportional to Initiative) + black sun filter
   
2. Auspex
   
3. Acute Senses rule (directly proportional to Initiative)
   

Melooo wrote:We were treating SWS as equipped with SM Auspex rules, and the cost was included to the squad.

Subteniente Che Oeste wrote:The point of this paragraph is that SWSS's as they are in FoK now will get forward of the main army, Infiltrate, and use Acute Senses to spot enemy units trying to be sneaky without SWSS themselves being seen and under fire from enemy guns.

Melooo never say that special weapon support squad is being treated as having Acute Senses rule. The current special weapon support squad are given an auspex, which is invalid according to codex, but nevertheless it is this piece of equipment that enables SWSS to detect stealth units like space marine scout/devastator sergeants.

However, he did mention that if the scanner were successfully implemented, they may consider replacing SWSS's auspex with Acute Senses rule to compensate for their lack of mobile detection role. Hence, currently the unusually large sight radius of SWSS is a placeholder for the scanner that SWSS is carrying with them. If the test is successful, then we will have a scanner that are close to Imperial Armour 4 rules, which will be carry by SWSS and deploy on the map for 325 requisitions. Thus far this sound very good in terms of rules accordance, although SCO says otherwise which makes sense because SWSS has no access to the armoury unlike Guard captain etc. This is followed by standardizing the sight radius of SWSS to that of normal infantry and give them Acute Senses rule, allowing them to detect stealth units at close proximity, which codex-wise I'm going to disagree with this.

I think the whole infiltration method needs a big overhaul, its got potential to be utterly frustrating depending on the race you play.


Infiltration is meant to let you sneak units onto the field, out of deployment zone. So if there is a great peice of terrain you want to control and take cover in you can deploy there. That is how original dawn of war infilitration worked, with scouts sneaking around, then when wanting to shoot they came out of stealth.

The idea of a infilitrated karskin squad crawling through undergrowth towards a tank then lobbing a meltabomb at it.. then running away.. thats great, just how would expect. But to sneak up on the tank and blast it with a plasma or melta gun without a retaliation shot.. or stand in the barest of light cover and lay waste to firewarriors without being shot back unless they run virtually into melee, meh stinks.


I've not heard anyone state that infiltrated units in Tt can shoot with impunity and not get shot back unless you run into nears damnit melee range with them. Even stealth suits if they stand out in the open with no cover, when there is no one else on the board can be shot at in return fire, no?

The last game I just had, being orcs was frustrating as heck, couldnt spot crap.. Just had to attack move the looters into melee and say bugger it. Only reason it was won, was that the ai was crap at using sniper drones and decied melee range was good for them.

I think infiltration should be reverted to dawn of war - pre darkcrusade *entire armies of infiltrated chaos space marine* madness, assuming the intent of a tt likeness.

To put it bluntly, Stealth teams in tabletop fall into "cheese" category. The stealth field generator integrated in their battlesuits make them very difficult to be targeted by the enemy. The enemy has to pass a spotting test as if they are fighting at night. Artillery needs to roll an extra D6 for scatter etc. Hence, to represent this in FoK, they are able to fire their weapons while permanently cloaked and can only be identified at a certain range regardless of the spotter's detection capability. Similar treatment are applied to Grey Knights who have the Shrouding special rule.

EDIT: Use Big Mek to spot.

EDIT2: I think a list of spotters should be made together with their spotting capabilities for each race so that testers are able to playtest better.

My scenario laid out with the SWSS was one where I incorporated the way they will operate if we follow Melooo's outline. The unit itself does not have Acute Senses, but Melooo put the idea out that they could effectively be given such so as to in some way make an approximation of SWSS having a Scanner on Table top. What I pointed out is what would be in FoK if that was put into place. With or without Acute Senses, FoK's formulation is wrong. If SWSS or any other Guard Unit other then Tech Priests were made to be able to deploy the proposed Scanner Auspex that would be wrong.

The Scanner is not something that is carried. As in my post that more or less restated the entry for Scanners, it is a single immovable model(with a guardsman) that is placed in an army's deployment zone at the beginning of the battle. For the battle the Scanner can use one of two scans, Long or Short. If there is a lack of mobile detection be it a single unit or the Guard as a whole, then it is intended to be that way as per codex and rules from Games Workshop. My final paragraph in the post above offers an idea how to get a Scanner that has most of the characteristics of the Table Top version represented with what is given through Dark Crusade's engine.

I see. If a scanner would be implemented, I recommend to consider SCO's outline. Of course there are much better alternatives in terms of ease of implementation. Command squad, psykers and all sergeants have access to surveyors. Mobile detection is not a problem for IG.

As for the SWSS, I prefer have their original role, as describe in the codex, restored as well. No infiltration, camouflaged, cloak, detection equipment etc.

As for the command squad, could you explain a bit more on it being an independent squad? What is wrong with the current command squad permanently attached to the Senior Officer?


@ Melooo: From my experience a spawn-able squad does use cost if you set it so.

@ Melooo: From my experience a spawn-able squad does use cost if you set it so.

Good to know then, this can ease up thing for limiting scanners to 0-1 and also using an HQ slot as IA 4 states, this would mean that in ArCo you cannot have a command squad, Scanner and Command Vanquisher...only 2 of them can be selected.

Well if we'd adhere truly to the TT codex rules SWS wouldnt be able to be permanently cloaked and neither would be able to weild acute senses or Auspex.

But scanners are a legal unit according to Forge World. and as ive repeated thousand of times a TT match is just a single of various skirmishes that occur during a FoK match.....so being a scanner able to be deployed by SWS teams anywhere on the map....is very likely to happen.

removed by me

Here is the jist of the rules:

0-1 Long Range Ground Scanner

Type: Immobile

HQ: LRGS is a HQ choice

Special Rules: The scanner can be set up in one of two modes, as detailed below. You must decide which mode the scanner will be set up in before the game starts. You cannot change the mode once it has been started, it remains in that mode for the rest of the game.

Long Range Sweep: Enemy units will find it hard to get close to the IGs position without be detected. There is a 50 percent chance that an enemy unit will be spotted by the long range sweep.

Short Range Sweep: One unit within 12' of the scanner has a 50 percent chance to re roll missed shots. A unit with a Vox Caster can be anywhere on the board and benefit from this. This chance of re rolling does not apply to artillery or barrage weapons or units.

Damage: Treat the scanner and operator as artillery and crew, so randomize hits between the two as per pg 56 of the rule book. The scanner has an armor value of 10 all around and any glancing or penetrating hits destroy it.

Here is a sketch of the relevant points:

1) The scanner is immobile and is only set up at the start of the game, which means it is restricted to the base area. In Fok the base area restriction should be the same, the scanner is not mobile. Nor is the scanner cloaked, infiltrated or in anyway invisible. West's suggestion that it should be built like a turret is very close to the codex idea. The LRGS seems like it would work best as a build-able structure, after all it is immobile.
2) The LRGS is a HQ choice.
3) You must choose how the LRGS will function when you build it - its function cannot be switched.
4) Long Range only gives a 50 percent chance to detect, it is by no means automatic.
5) Short Range only gives a 50 percent chance to re-roll missed shots by 'one' unit. This does not apply to artillery or barrage weapons.
6) Scanner is immobile and is treated as artillery and it destroyed by any glancing or penetrating hit.

These are the points we should be discussing. I hope this will help clear up the conversation.

That thread makes me think that it would be better off just putting the "vanilla" imperial guard detection method back in, of having each HQ building, use its scanner (which is even on the model itself heh) to detect infilitration.